Richard G. Hovannisian: In his own words
History comes to life in Tangra, India
by Paul Chaderjian
Published: Monday November 24, 2008
Kolkata, India - Students at the Armenian College and Philanthropic Academy welcomed Catholicos Karekin II and guests from around the world as part of the weeklong celebrations of Armenians in India that took place the second week of November.
One of the guests, noted scholar Richard G. Hovannisian, spoke to the Armenian Reporter about the Wednesday, November 12, program at the college.
RGH: I thought it was a very well done collage of Armenian history, the sadness of it, the occasional retreats and ultimately the spirit optimism and survival and going ahead despite all the obstacles and giving hope for the future. I thought it was very well done. I saw around me a great deal of emotion from everyone who witnessed it. It was done by the students, and I thought it was very creative. The overall program was interesting. I would like to have seen, maybe with all the native dances, an Armenian dance. I wondered, Are we already, even as we have a resurrection, also witnessing acculturation, assimilation at the same time?
AR: Is recreating a diaspora community where there are hardly any Armenians left a worthwhile effort?
RGH: I think it's worth the effort since there are resources for that, and if those resources are not used to try to revive and maintain the community, then they will be lost. So, it's worth the effort to have an Armenian presence. You know, you can go to a lot of places in Germany, and they have no more a Jewish community. But they have a synagogue, and they have people that visit the synagogue. It's part of the history of the community. So I think that all of these churches and institutions are part of the local history, the national history, and they have a place here. And since there are now endowments that have been established by the foresight of our forefathers here, then they should be taken care of. His Holiness has a dream that perhaps with some of the students that are coming here that they might find their life's partners here among the students and that will perhaps find a way to encourage them to stay here and to recreate a community. That's an ambitious plan, but it's not beyond imagination.
AR: Why would be want to have students here if we have a homeland, an Etchmiadzin?
RGH: The students here are getting a good education. They're getting a free education. But I think it's more than having the students here. It's seeing that these old establishments keep their door open. That's the main intent of it. For a very long time, the students were coming from Iran, Iraq. It is not so easy for them to come from those areas. And they have started to come from Armenia. It's tradeoff. We don't want our people to leave Armenia. We want them to live in Armenia. On the other hand, it might be wiser to have a small community here than have a 100 or 200 thousand Armenians in Los Angeles, who have left from Armenia, who have no particular redeeming value in this sense here, where 50 people or a 100 people can make a difference. And that's true in all communities. When you have a small number of people, each individual counts. When you have huge numbers of people, then the relative importance of the mass is not no great.
AR: Why did you come to India?
RGH: When I grew up I didn't know Armenian. I went to Beirut for a year after I graduated from the University of California, Berkeley, to learn Armenian, and then I went on my journey back to Los Angeles through all the communities in southeastern Asia, starting from Iraq and Iran through Karachi, Delhi, and Kolkata in the mid 50s, so it's been more than 50 years.
I also went to Java [Indonesia], and Singapore, discovering Armenian churches and Armenian communities and felt how strongly these communities were attached to Julfa, which I had also visited.
It seemed to be a wonderful opportunity to come back after so many years to Kolkata. It was a much more lively community at the time. They had a sports club. They had a social club; also a rugby team. I knew those were no longer here. I knew Armenians had left and gone to Australia and other areas. This was sort of like a pilgrimage, a return pilgrimage, and I do not at all regret it.
Indeed, I was very pleased and felt honored that I could speak at this symposium, and even more so to be present at the reconsecration of the churches in Madras, the Holy Trinity Church community center here in Tangra, and I'm sure now, as we are going to look around the Armenian College, which I visited at that time, we're going to see some renovations. Other churches are going to be renovated as well. As I said, it's important to have a historic presence here, just as in Singapore, the St. Gregory the Illuminator is a national monument, whether there are Armenians there or not, tourists visit it, and it's good for our international public relations.
AR: Why had the church let these buildings go?
RGH: I think perhaps the weakening of the community, the lack of perhaps foresight and leadership. I cannot answer that question, honestly. But you know, I think now, there is a forward looking, hopefully, leadership. It's a very small community. They have 20-22 members that belong to the church, so obviously they're going to need help and leadership in direction.
Increasingly, the native Armenians of this community are obviously part-Armenian, but there is in this last five, seven, or ten years this movement of revival. And we hope that it has lasting effects and it's not just a quick fix but has a lasting effect, and that again depends on foresight, and hopefully the Holy See will take a direct interest in the welfare of this community and its activities.
And if they are able, and apparently, they do have the funds, it'll allow them to have the proper clergy, proper teachers, proper principal of the school, and there will be a future. We'll have to wait and see, but we don't know. After all it's not only India, it's everywhere Armenians have been. If you go to Romania today, up to Northern Moldavia, there are beautiful Armenian monasteries which are abandoned. There are Armenian monasteries, but the communities are gone. I suppose in the long run, it means that no matter where you build and how great you build your temples, if they are in a foreign land, they will ultimately be empty. We keep them as long as we can, but we have to learn - and this is what we have to learn from the Jewish community, how to put permanence in the community.
Our parents who were survivors of the Genocide always dreamed about a return to Armenia. Now the time has come for us to understand that our communities are important. The Armenian diaspora has always been important and you need to find the bases and the fundamentals with which it can perpetuate itself. If it cannot do that, it will obviously disappear.
AR: What was the Indian-Armenian church's relationship with Etchmiadzin when you visited here?
RGH: This was part of New Julfa diocese, all of Java, Rangoon, Singapore, all of India. They were all part of the Indo-Iranian Diocese. Then the Iranian-Armenian churches reaffiliated with the Holy See of Cilicia in Antelias. This was after the election of Catholicos Zareh in 1956, some years thereafter. It was at the time of the Shah, particularly, who was obviously very anti-Soviet, that the Iranian-Armenian dioceses (there are three dioceses in Iran, in Tabriz, in Tehran, and in New Julfa), all three of them then switched their affiliation to Antelias. And at that time these churches did not; these churches remains with Holy Etchmiadzin, and the Catholicos appointed, sort of like a vicar for these areas, and they are now under the jurisdiction of the Primate of Australia, Aghvan Srpazan, who comes once a year to these churches and visits them.
AR: Why were Armenians moved from Nakhichevan to New Julfa?
RGH: Shah Abbas, in his wars against Turkey, implemented a burned, scorched-earth policy. He was also founder of a new dynasty. He created a new capital city. He was very much aware of Armenian merchant capital and the reputation of the Armenian merchants, and he forcibly removed not only the merchants, but the population en masse. Thousands died in that move, thousands of people were forcibly moved, but he gave them the area beyond the river from his capital, and they called it Nor Jugha, because many of them had come from Jugha. And he did not allow any Muslim to live here. He allowed them to create their own cities, their own quarters, and they created 12 or 13 churches with their own monastery.
When I went there, my first trip in the 50s, it was very much an Armenian town. Now, of course, it's almost completely integrated. And then he was good to the Armenians, and the Armenians were very good to him, because they became his major purveyors of goods. He gave them monopolies on silk trade and so forth, but they had to pay. It was a little sort of tradeoff. At times he was good, and at other times he was demanding of paybacks, which he received. He was better than some of his successors, who became religiously fanatic and created a time of persecution. But overall, the community has remained for more than 300 years now, just as this one has. And the linkage, you know, there was a strong umbilical cord between New Julfa and all of the Southeast Asian communities.
AR: Thank you.
Published: Monday November 24, 2008
Kolkata, India - Students at the Armenian College and Philanthropic Academy welcomed Catholicos Karekin II and guests from around the world as part of the weeklong celebrations of Armenians in India that took place the second week of November.
One of the guests, noted scholar Richard G. Hovannisian, spoke to the Armenian Reporter about the Wednesday, November 12, program at the college.
RGH: I thought it was a very well done collage of Armenian history, the sadness of it, the occasional retreats and ultimately the spirit optimism and survival and going ahead despite all the obstacles and giving hope for the future. I thought it was very well done. I saw around me a great deal of emotion from everyone who witnessed it. It was done by the students, and I thought it was very creative. The overall program was interesting. I would like to have seen, maybe with all the native dances, an Armenian dance. I wondered, Are we already, even as we have a resurrection, also witnessing acculturation, assimilation at the same time?
AR: Is recreating a diaspora community where there are hardly any Armenians left a worthwhile effort?
RGH: I think it's worth the effort since there are resources for that, and if those resources are not used to try to revive and maintain the community, then they will be lost. So, it's worth the effort to have an Armenian presence. You know, you can go to a lot of places in Germany, and they have no more a Jewish community. But they have a synagogue, and they have people that visit the synagogue. It's part of the history of the community. So I think that all of these churches and institutions are part of the local history, the national history, and they have a place here. And since there are now endowments that have been established by the foresight of our forefathers here, then they should be taken care of. His Holiness has a dream that perhaps with some of the students that are coming here that they might find their life's partners here among the students and that will perhaps find a way to encourage them to stay here and to recreate a community. That's an ambitious plan, but it's not beyond imagination.
AR: Why would be want to have students here if we have a homeland, an Etchmiadzin?
RGH: The students here are getting a good education. They're getting a free education. But I think it's more than having the students here. It's seeing that these old establishments keep their door open. That's the main intent of it. For a very long time, the students were coming from Iran, Iraq. It is not so easy for them to come from those areas. And they have started to come from Armenia. It's tradeoff. We don't want our people to leave Armenia. We want them to live in Armenia. On the other hand, it might be wiser to have a small community here than have a 100 or 200 thousand Armenians in Los Angeles, who have left from Armenia, who have no particular redeeming value in this sense here, where 50 people or a 100 people can make a difference. And that's true in all communities. When you have a small number of people, each individual counts. When you have huge numbers of people, then the relative importance of the mass is not no great.
AR: Why did you come to India?
RGH: When I grew up I didn't know Armenian. I went to Beirut for a year after I graduated from the University of California, Berkeley, to learn Armenian, and then I went on my journey back to Los Angeles through all the communities in southeastern Asia, starting from Iraq and Iran through Karachi, Delhi, and Kolkata in the mid 50s, so it's been more than 50 years.
I also went to Java [Indonesia], and Singapore, discovering Armenian churches and Armenian communities and felt how strongly these communities were attached to Julfa, which I had also visited.
It seemed to be a wonderful opportunity to come back after so many years to Kolkata. It was a much more lively community at the time. They had a sports club. They had a social club; also a rugby team. I knew those were no longer here. I knew Armenians had left and gone to Australia and other areas. This was sort of like a pilgrimage, a return pilgrimage, and I do not at all regret it.
Indeed, I was very pleased and felt honored that I could speak at this symposium, and even more so to be present at the reconsecration of the churches in Madras, the Holy Trinity Church community center here in Tangra, and I'm sure now, as we are going to look around the Armenian College, which I visited at that time, we're going to see some renovations. Other churches are going to be renovated as well. As I said, it's important to have a historic presence here, just as in Singapore, the St. Gregory the Illuminator is a national monument, whether there are Armenians there or not, tourists visit it, and it's good for our international public relations.
AR: Why had the church let these buildings go?
RGH: I think perhaps the weakening of the community, the lack of perhaps foresight and leadership. I cannot answer that question, honestly. But you know, I think now, there is a forward looking, hopefully, leadership. It's a very small community. They have 20-22 members that belong to the church, so obviously they're going to need help and leadership in direction.
Increasingly, the native Armenians of this community are obviously part-Armenian, but there is in this last five, seven, or ten years this movement of revival. And we hope that it has lasting effects and it's not just a quick fix but has a lasting effect, and that again depends on foresight, and hopefully the Holy See will take a direct interest in the welfare of this community and its activities.
And if they are able, and apparently, they do have the funds, it'll allow them to have the proper clergy, proper teachers, proper principal of the school, and there will be a future. We'll have to wait and see, but we don't know. After all it's not only India, it's everywhere Armenians have been. If you go to Romania today, up to Northern Moldavia, there are beautiful Armenian monasteries which are abandoned. There are Armenian monasteries, but the communities are gone. I suppose in the long run, it means that no matter where you build and how great you build your temples, if they are in a foreign land, they will ultimately be empty. We keep them as long as we can, but we have to learn - and this is what we have to learn from the Jewish community, how to put permanence in the community.
Our parents who were survivors of the Genocide always dreamed about a return to Armenia. Now the time has come for us to understand that our communities are important. The Armenian diaspora has always been important and you need to find the bases and the fundamentals with which it can perpetuate itself. If it cannot do that, it will obviously disappear.
AR: What was the Indian-Armenian church's relationship with Etchmiadzin when you visited here?
RGH: This was part of New Julfa diocese, all of Java, Rangoon, Singapore, all of India. They were all part of the Indo-Iranian Diocese. Then the Iranian-Armenian churches reaffiliated with the Holy See of Cilicia in Antelias. This was after the election of Catholicos Zareh in 1956, some years thereafter. It was at the time of the Shah, particularly, who was obviously very anti-Soviet, that the Iranian-Armenian dioceses (there are three dioceses in Iran, in Tabriz, in Tehran, and in New Julfa), all three of them then switched their affiliation to Antelias. And at that time these churches did not; these churches remains with Holy Etchmiadzin, and the Catholicos appointed, sort of like a vicar for these areas, and they are now under the jurisdiction of the Primate of Australia, Aghvan Srpazan, who comes once a year to these churches and visits them.
AR: Why were Armenians moved from Nakhichevan to New Julfa?
RGH: Shah Abbas, in his wars against Turkey, implemented a burned, scorched-earth policy. He was also founder of a new dynasty. He created a new capital city. He was very much aware of Armenian merchant capital and the reputation of the Armenian merchants, and he forcibly removed not only the merchants, but the population en masse. Thousands died in that move, thousands of people were forcibly moved, but he gave them the area beyond the river from his capital, and they called it Nor Jugha, because many of them had come from Jugha. And he did not allow any Muslim to live here. He allowed them to create their own cities, their own quarters, and they created 12 or 13 churches with their own monastery.
When I went there, my first trip in the 50s, it was very much an Armenian town. Now, of course, it's almost completely integrated. And then he was good to the Armenians, and the Armenians were very good to him, because they became his major purveyors of goods. He gave them monopolies on silk trade and so forth, but they had to pay. It was a little sort of tradeoff. At times he was good, and at other times he was demanding of paybacks, which he received. He was better than some of his successors, who became religiously fanatic and created a time of persecution. But overall, the community has remained for more than 300 years now, just as this one has. And the linkage, you know, there was a strong umbilical cord between New Julfa and all of the Southeast Asian communities.
AR: Thank you.
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